The Path to Redemption

[zena]

I never said I thought she was less of a person. And I never said there was anything wrong with what she wanted. Like I said, I even encouraged her to explore as she is still young. I also said I respected her honesty. And the fact that I could never be happy in a relationship like that, doesn't mean I think it's wrong. I do intend to stay good friends with her though.

If she were your daughter, would you encourage her to explore?  That, I would say is not coming from a good friend with a good heart.  It is what you say to someone you've lost respect for but don't want to hurt their feelings.

But, I will not dissuade you to think differently... or as I said about your friend, I'll say to you too, that maybe you're putting up a front with her.

[Redemption]

If she were your daughter, would you encourage her to explore?  That, I would say is not coming from a good friend with a good heart.  It is what you say to someone you've lost respect for but don't want to hurt their feelings.

But, I will not dissuade you to think differently... or as I said about your friend, I'll say to you too, that maybe you're putting up a front with her.

I seriously don't understand you sometimes... at first, you say:

Btw, there's nothing wrong with what she wants and really, Redemption, you shouldn't be making it seem like she's less of a person for her personal desires.

then now you say:

If she were your daughter, would you encourage her to explore?

Are you just trying to criticize me?

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm the type of person that wants people to live their life the way they want it. I'm not afraid to tell gays/lesbians to love who they want. I'm not afraid to tell a Hmong lady to marry out of the Hmong race if she wants to. If someone wants to do porn, so be it. I merely said that if this is something she really wants to do, as long as she is willing to take the consequences, whatever they may be... then to do it while she is still young, as when she gets older, she will probably want to give all that up and settle down.

If it were my daughter, I would make sure she knew all the consequences and then let her do what she wants. I wouldn't like it, but if that's what she really wants to do, then so be it. I think that's the only way for them to learn for themselves.

[zena]

I seriously don't understand you sometimes... at first, you say:

then now you say:

Are you just trying to criticize me?

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm the type of person that wants people to live their life the way they want it. I'm not afraid to tell gays/lesbians to love who they want. I'm not afraid to tell a Hmong lady to marry out of the Hmong race if she wants to. If someone wants to do porn, so be it. I merely said that if this is something she really wants to do, as long as she is willing to take the consequences, whatever they may be... then to do it while she is still young, as when she gets older, she will probably want to give all that up and settle down.

If it were my daughter, I would make sure she knew all the consequences and then let her do what she wants. I wouldn't like it, but if that's what she really wants to do, then so be it. I think that's the only way for them to learn for themselves.

I figured you'd comment back with something like that...that I was contradicting.  But no, I'm not and I'm also not criticizing you (maybe hopefully have you think from a different angle but not criticize).

All I'm saying is that she has the right to think and do whatever she wants, as it is obvious by you too.  But, you later stated that she is a good friend which then makes no sense.  When someone becomes a good friend, I kind of step it up a notch and become a bit more protected and caring (not that I wouldn't be like that with a stranger, I am often, but I keep friends closer to my heart).  If you had said that she was just someone you met and had a conversation, yes, than I'd leave it at that.  But, as soon as you mentioned "good friends" it's different.  Good friends are someone you care about and hope the best for in their endeavors.  They are the ones you stand up for and get angry at when they make hasty decisions.  They are the ones you say, "Look, we are good friends, and because of that, I have to tell you how I really feel about (the situation)."  Now, unless you truly feel that it's okay for any girl, be it your wife, your daughter, girlfriend, etc. to want to sleep with so many guys then yeah, definitely let her do that too.  But, when you say, you liked her until you learned of her secret as a sex addict, then you kind of just stepped back from pursuing her, because that's not something you want in a "wife" eventually, and then pretend to be her "good friend," something's wrong there.  How can you be around a girl that you call "good friend" knowing what her intimate secrets are and feel glad that you have the advantage of knowing who she really is, yet still pretend to be her good friend?  I would call that a cold and callous person pretending to be a friend.  I didn't think that was you.

[Redemption]

I figured you'd comment back with something like that...that I was contradicting.  But no, I'm not and I'm also not criticizing you (maybe hopefully have you think from a different angle but not criticize).

I'm still lost at what angle you want me to think from?

All I'm saying is that she has the right to think and do whatever she wants, as it is obvious by you too.  But, you later stated that she is a good friend which then makes no sense.  When someone becomes a good friend, I kind of step it up a notch and become a bit more protected and caring (not that I wouldn't be like that with a stranger, I am often, but I keep friends closer to my heart).  If you had said that she was just someone you met and had a conversation, yes, than I'd leave it at that.  But, as soon as you mentioned "good friends" it's different.  Good friends are someone you care about and hope the best for in their endeavors.  They are the ones you stand up for and get angry at when they make hasty decisions.  They are the ones you say, "Look, we are good friends, and because of that, I have to tell you how I really feel about (the situation)."  Now, unless you truly feel that it's okay for any girl, be it your wife, your daughter, girlfriend, etc. to want to sleep with so many guys then yeah, definitely let her do that too.

See, I think that's where we differ. To you, you may think I don't care about her well being... but I am not like you. I do not impose what I think is right or wrong on friends. I tell them, but I don't impose it upon them. I also remind them of the consequences, but if they still want to do it, I support them and just try to help them figure out a safer way to do it. You're assuming I want her to do it because some how I've lost respect for her, right? Like I said, I already told her my thoughts, and I even told her I, along with most men, would not agree with what she wants to do... but that if she still wanted to do it, to do it limiting the risks, and when she's young and not married, as opposed to her doing while she's married. I mean, just the fact that she brought up this issue, you know she's been battling this in her mind. It just happens that we had an open enough connection to talk about it. To me, if it's something she's battling this hard with, chances are... that one day, she will explore it.

So what do you tell friends who are gay? So you're saying you'd tell them to not be gay? Is it that easy? And so you are saying that since I would tell this gay friend to live the life he/she wants to, but just to be careful... that some how I respect them any less and that I am not their true friend? I may or may not agree with it, but it's not my life. I don't get you. Maybe you think you're a better friend for telling them to stop being gay, but I think that's the opposite. As a friend, we should accept them the way they are. Sure, we can tell them how we think. We can remind them of the fallout from their actions, but after we do all that, I believe we should accept them for who they are or who they want to be. So if one of your children is gay/lesbian, what do you do? Beat them till they're not gay? Make them live the way you want them to live? So if one day, you accepted the fact that they are gay/lesbian... do you then respect them any less?

But, when you say, you liked her until you learned of her secret as a sex addict, then you kind of just stepped back from pursuing her, because that's not something you want in a "wife" eventually, and then pretend to be her "good friend," something's wrong there.  How can you be around a girl that you call "good friend" knowing what her intimate secrets are and feel glad that you have the advantage of knowing who she really is, yet still pretend to be her good friend?  I would call that a cold and callous person pretending to be a friend.  I didn't think that was you.

Yes, we were headed in a good direction... and yes, because of her admission, I did change my mind. The thing is, you're assuming that it's because I some how respect her less. Nope, in fact I respect her more for her honesty. But that doesn't mean I agree with her. And I was honest with her that I would not be able to date/marry her, or someone like her. And I made it clear that most men wouldn't be able to either.

All these words you throw out... especially the word "pretend," make it obvious you're just assuming things. Like I said, and have been saying... I don't judge people. I don't force them to do something. I support friends, even if I don't agree with it. I think the "cold and callous person pretending to be a friend" is the one who wants the friend to live with your set of rules. Refer to my gay/lesbian example above to fully understand again. People may think marrying outside of the race is a bad thing. Your parents, friends, and even the Hmong community may think it's a bad thing. So here you are, part of the group that is telling her that it's a bad thing and to not do it. I'm the one reminding them off the fallout but saying "hey, live life the way you want to, I accept you the way you are."

[zena]

It's okay if you don't get where I'm coming from.  Maybe some day you might but if not, no big deal.  Not trying to change you.  Just trying to make you see things from a different angle.

No, I'm far from changing people, but there are people who don't see their own predicament and those are the ones I tend to have a tenderness toward.  Gay people are different. It's in their DNA to be gay.  It is the world that is cruel to them.  They've done nothing wrong.  A better example to your situation would be an abusive relationship.  If the husband was beating up his wife, who was your "good friend" and you spoke to the wife, you'd say, "That's too bad for you, but you chose that life.  I'll still talk to you and you can tell me all the ways he's beating you but that's all I'm going to do."  I could not sit around and allow that to happen.  I'd tell her to leave.  Go to a shelter.  Get away asap.  Move far far away.  If she refuses then I'd tell her, "I can't be your friend until you take this advice.  Get help.  You mean so much to me and I can't bare seeing you beaten up.  One of these days you're going to show up dead and I don't want to see that."  I'd do all that I could to help her but if she still believes her abuser is the love of their life, then I'm not going to be around to see the bruises or hear the stories.  I am definitely not going to call her my good friend.  "Oh, yeah, my good friend so and so just got beaten up big time by her husband.  Damn, I can't believe she's still with him...my good friend."

Same as, "Oh yeah, my good friend has slept with 50 guys so far.  Said she's got AIDS now but she wants to hit that 100 number.  I can't believe she's still going."

If I had a good friend who was a sex addict, I'd tell her the sh*t she's doing is degrading.  I'd tell her she needs help because that's not normal. There's a psychological trauma or something in her childhood that lead her astray in that way.  I'd have so much more to say and add that if she doesn't get help then I won't be her friend.  I won't be around to see the pain and suffering, loss of dignity, of self-esteems, and self-confidence she'll go through.  If she tells me she doesn't have a problem and enjoys it, I'd tell her, I can't be her friend because I don't want to find out later that she has STD's, AIDS, or some other disease.  If she's lucky and never gets anything like that, great, but if she does I'm going to be pissed at myself for not doing more to help her.  I'd tell her I'd never let my daughter or girlfriend or wife go through something like that and think it's okay...yadah, yadah.

If I wasn't her friend, I would just think, "How sad," and move on with my life.  Take that experience of learning about that stranger as a way of God telling me that some people are there to teach me to be safe.

But you said, you are good friends.  That changes everything. 

[WindComeWindBlow]

There are 2 different personalities here. 

I don't think Redemption has disrespected this friend here.  He simply understood and accepted her choices and moved on.  Good friends or not, if they've just known each other, he simply can't impose on her lifestyle.  She's an adult so she is free to do what she likes.  It is the other party that gets to choose to stay or go. 

From the content of his messages, I understood that they just met.  Regardless, what his 'good friend' could have a different meaning than yours. 

[zena]

That's true.  I guess I should have asked for the definition of a good friend. 

[zena]

Don't take it personally redemption.  Just trying to open your eyes.  I guess if someone was telling me to look at things differently, I'd ask for more questions/insights.  But, I guess that's where I'm different.

Good luck with your relationship with your good friend. 

[Redemption]

No, I'm far from changing people, but there are people who don't see their own predicament and those are the ones I tend to have a tenderness toward.  Gay people are different. It's in their DNA to be gay.  It is the world that is cruel to them.  They've done nothing wrong.

If I had a good friend who was a sex addict, I'd tell her the sh*t she's doing is degrading.  I'd tell her she needs help because that's not normal. There's a psychological trauma or something in her childhood that lead her astray in that way.

Again, contradicting. Is there a difference? On one example, you are saying gay people can't help it. Assuming that she can help what she feels... which I doubt she can because I have actually talked to her about it. So you're making an assumption of her... then you say oh, it's a psychological trauma or something in her childhood... so you admit to her not being able to help it. And because you deem being promiscuous is a bad thing, she obviously need help, right? Just remember, we all have our opinions about what is right, what is wrong. We do not all live under your morals.

A better example to your situation would be an abusive relationship.  If the husband was beating up his wife, who was your "good friend" and you spoke to the wife, you'd say, "That's too bad for you, but you chose that life.  I'll still talk to you and you can tell me all the ways he's beating you but that's all I'm going to do."  I could not sit around and allow that to happen.  I'd tell her to leave.  Go to a shelter.  Get away asap.  Move far far away.  If she refuses then I'd tell her, "I can't be your friend until you take this advice.  Get help.  You mean so much to me and I can't bare seeing you beaten up.  One of these days you're going to show up dead and I don't want to see that."  I'd do all that I could to help her but if she still believes her abuser is the love of their life, then I'm not going to be around to see the bruises or hear the stories.  I am definitely not going to call her my good friend.  "Oh, yeah, my good friend so and so just got beaten up big time by her husband.  Damn, I can't believe she's still with him...my good friend."

See, you're totally contradicting again... I don't even think you know what your argument is. You're just trying to some how question me. I have been with friends who have been in abusive relationships, and of course I have told them to leave. And yet they won't. So do you think they are doing it on purpose also? Or maybe there is some underlying psychological issue they have, that makes them no able to help themselves? So what do you think we should do? Go kidnap them against their will and "save" them? I've ended up being so frustrated by them then I just brush their future complaints off. So how are we different? How are you so much more of a better person than I am? So you're saying, if they don't do as we say, we should not be their friends? So your original point was that I should have terminated her friendship cause she wouldn't listen to reason?

Pretty selfish, don't you think?

Guys sleep around. How is it any different? You're looking at it like she's a slut, right? Like some how, she's a victim? If she decides to do it, it's her choice. And sure, the chances are higher that a promiscuous person will contract some sort of disease, but she knows the risks, and if one day she decides it's worth the risks, then we can't stop her... only thing we can do is be there if she needs us.

You even said "All I'm saying is that she has the right to think and do whatever she wants." Umm... That's what I've been saying, so what is this point you keep trying to prove? You really have no clue as to what your point it. You're just picking at every straw you can to try to some how disprove me.

I'm done responding to you because you have yet to even prove your point. How can you open anyone's eyes, if you don't even know what you're trying to teach them? You're just arguing and trying to find anything to some how prove that you're a better person. You win moonangel. You are a better person. You make a better friend.

[Redemption]

There are 2 different personalities here. 

I don't think Redemption has disrespected this friend here.  He simply understood and accepted her choices and moved on.  Good friends or not, if they've just known each other, he simply can't impose on her lifestyle.  She's an adult so she is free to do what she likes.  It is the other party that gets to choose to stay or go. 

From the content of his messages, I understood that they just met.  Regardless, what his 'good friend' could have a different meaning than yours.

Thanks Blue.Bird, at least someone understood the whole point to the topic.

[zena]

Oh..never said I didn't understand.  Did say, try to look at it from a different angle.  It looks like you are looking for sympathy.  Had I know that, I would have hugged you. 

[Redemption]

Oh..never said I didn't understand.  Did say, try to look at it from a different angle.  It looks like you are looking for sympathy.  Had I know that, I would have hugged you. 

Wow, you must not really like me. I don't know why you bother reading what I have to say then? One of my earlier posts you did the same, and I tried to ask you to explain to me what you meant... and you couldn't. Like this time also.

You read my words, jump to conclusions... when I clarify, you try to find another way to discount me, at the same time contradicting yourself. I ask you to clarify, and you go and say exactly the same things I said... and you still reach for more things to throw at me. And now, you're trying to some how make me look bad by throwing sympathy. lol, too funny. Never knew you were like this. I'm sure everyone has noticed that you come into my thread and find ways to make it look like I'm some beggar looking for food from the mighty moonangel. Truth is, if you have issues with me, or are jealous of me in any way, don't beat around the bush and just say it. You don't see me coming into your threads and trying to make you see all these angles that you can't even explain.

So tell me, what is the angel you were trying to point out to me? Explain it out. Thanks.

[Redemption]

...And seriously, I could just as easily come into your threads and give you different angles to look at also.

[zena]

Actually, I like you.  Otherwise, I wouldn't bother commenting on your topic, conversing, challenging you.  Do you think if I didn't like you that I'd actually pay attention or care enough to try to challenge you? 

Well, don't just read my thread to pay back.  Only do it if you really have something to read.  I'd prefer a ghost reader over someone trying to prove something for his/her own ego. 

[Redemption]

So damn tired today.  I was tossing and turning last night. And to make it worse.. my leg kept twitching every 30 seconds or so. Hardly got any sleep. It's gonna be a long day...